Acadēmīa:Fabrica: Difference between revisions

VisualWikitext

Latest revision as of 19:14, 2 May 2023

Forum sections

Purpose:

This page is used to discuss new entries that are labeled with

suggested by Acadēmīa

.

Please put this page on your watch list, so that you may not miss any new proposals.

How to create a topic:

Please look, if your entry already exists.
Press "Add topic" above and write down your English word you want in the subject.
Set {{Proposal}} at the beginning and then write down your proposal.
Set {{Reason}} after that and write down your reasoning behind the proposal. Provide etymology and/or evidence in the Romance languages.
You can make your own (counter)proposals with {{Proposal}} that are to be discussed.
Click on "Send" and you are done!

How to react to a topic:

Press "Reply". Set depending on your opinion {{Cōnsentiō}} or {{Dissentiō}} at the beginning of your comment and then write down your reasoning.
Please set {{Cōnsentiō}} or {{Dissentiō}} only once. If you change your mind during the debate, you can cross out your comment with <s>[YOUR COMMENT]</s> and express your changed opinion again. For documentation purposes, do not delete any comment!

End of debate:

Debates are to be debated for at least seven days. They may go longer, until all meaningful arguments have been exchanged or all objections have been resolved. If there is consensus, the entry is entered with the proposed word. If there are several words for which there is consensus, several words can be put in the entry.

Archiving:

From time to time the closed discussions are archived for the purpose of overview and moved to a subpage. An administrator will provide a short summary of the discussion, if necessary, so that later readers have an overview.

Dandelion

Proposal: dēns liōnis

Reason: According to Wiktionary, the term "dēns liōnis" is attested in Late Latin, but I cannot find any evidence for that. Maybe @Lukas or @Logodaedalus can help me with that to find a source. Jācōbus (talk) 20:05, 3 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

Kirsch does have Dens leonis as Löwenzahn, ein Kraut (Dandelion, an herb). Lūkās (talk) 23:14, 3 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

Thanks. You could make the entry, if you want. Jācōbus (talk) 23:29, 3 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

Why dēns leōnis and not taraxacum (vulgāre) or aphaca?

> Varium adeptum est nomen Taraxacum. A foliorum incisuris dentatis vel pinnatis, maxillam dentatam leonis referre creditis, vel quia dentibus lacerata videntur, dens leonis, dent de lion Gallis, loewenzahn, a thalamo nudo punctato, rasum caput referente, caput monachi vocatum est. A singulari virtute, urinaria et pisse en lit, ab eadem, et a scapo cavo fistularia...

https://books.google.it/books?id=NeZSAAAAcAAJ De taraxaco praesertim aquae eiusdem per fermentationem paratae eximio usu one of the first result of dens leonis in google books Logodaedalus (talk) 11:36, 4 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

It is the botanical name, which we could also include. But I have personally a problem with that, since botanical names are usually artificial and do not fit that well with Latin. Jācōbus (talk) 14:34, 4 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

I agree that botanical names are oftentimes artificial. But overall I disagree because (1) taraxacum is just a part of the botanical name (2) I put in my previous reply a source which attests the use of taraxacum as the name of the plant and other names like dens leonis, caput monachi and urinaria (it. pisciacane). Logodaedalus (talk) 14:44, 4 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

Kirsch also has an entry for Tărāxăcum, i, n. and defines it as "Pfaffenblatt, Münchskopf, Saudistel, ein gewisses Kraut. Botan[isch]." (pastor's leaf, monk's head, sow thistle, a certain herb. Botanical.). The first two names do appear to be common names for Taraxacum officinale and the second name does neatly fit caput monachi, although the third name seems to refer to somewhat similar-looking Sonchus.

So, I agree with taraxacum, which (at least according to Wikipedia, I couldn't find it in Du Cange) entered Latin from Arabic in the 12th century and therefore is not a modern innovation.

Another question is the scope of our entry. In modern English usage dandelion only refers to the genus Taraxacum and similar plants, such as Leontodon, are known as false dandelion. That strikes me as a modern botanical distinction, although I might be biased since my native language simply calls both Löwenzahn. Lūkās (talk) 01:12, 24 April 2023 (CEST)Reply[reply]

We can include this I think. Our dictionary is not (only) about the scientific usage of certain words, but you can make an extra comment to this. Jācōbus (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2023 (CEST)Reply[reply]

Pudding

Proposal: puddinga

Reason: I was think about words like puls dulcis, but pudding is a very universal word that has been adapted in every Romance language. Also Greek does use this word, so I am proposing this word. Jācōbus (talk) 21:02, 3 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

Looking in the lexicon Morganianum, I found a few words: oxygala, erneum and murtatum; oryzae tympanum/oryza sufflata for rice pudding. Logodaedalus (talk) 11:49, 4 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

Rice pudding is not the same as pudding, though. In German, we call this "Milchreis", since it has very little in common with pudding. But we can include this word for rice pudding, according to Vicipaedia Rice pudding is "Oryza cum lacte" or "puls oryzae" (but there is no source for that, so we should be cautious). Jācōbus (talk) 14:36, 4 March 2023 (CET)Reply[reply]

Conjunctor, Adjunctor, Implication, ...

Proposal: The latin equivalents

Reason: So, I am currently studying logic and mathematics and there are a bunch of words derived from Latin and Greek. I'd suggest that we should include the latinized versions conjūnctor, adjunctor, implicātiō, ... regardless whether they are attested or not (false friends obviously excluded). There are probably a few hundred words, so I think it'd be better if we do not discuss each one of them, because that would take a lot of time. Jācōbus (talk) 19:16, 28 March 2023 (CEST)Reply[reply]

Bingo

Proposal: Bingō

Reason: As far as I am aware, bingo is derived from the sound of a bell (bing bing). Since this is a proper name of a game, I'd suggest to not change the name. Jācōbus (talk) 20:14, 2 May 2023 (CEST)Reply[reply]

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 __NEWSECTIONLINK__
-== Czechia ==
+== Dandelion ==
-{{Proposal}}Bohēmia or Cechia
+{{Proposal}}dēns liōnis
-{{Reason}}That is a matter that I am still not sure how we are going to deal with. Some find "Czechia" problematic as a spelling and prefer Cechia (see the discussion on [https://www.reddit.com/r/latin/comments/115go1o/i_have_created_an_englishneolatin_dictionary/ Reddit]). I would also want to suggest taking that as an alternative. However, there are also those who prefer the name Bohēmia, although Bohemia is only a part of today's Czechia and had also included Germans, for example. Therefore, I want to hear your opinion on whether we should list Bohemia as an alternative vocabulary with the indication that it is actually misleading. So what is your opinion on this? [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 14:02, 20 February 2023 (CET)
+{{Reason}}According to Wiktionary, the term "dēns liōnis" is attested in Late Latin, but I cannot find any evidence for that. Maybe @[[User:Lukas|Lukas]] or @[[User:Logodaedalus|Logodaedalus]] can help me with that to find a source. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 20:05, 3 March 2023 (CET)
-:In that regard, ''Czechia'' ultimately has the same issues as ''Bohemia'', as it derives from the Czech name for Bohemia, ''Čechy''; it is a pars pro toto either way. So I don’t see any harm in giving ''Bohemia'' as an alternative.
+:[https://mateo.uni-mannheim.de/camenaref/kirsch/kirsch1/p1/jpg/s0422.html Kirsch] does have ''Dens leonis'' as ''Löwenzahn, ein Kraut'' (Dandelion, an herb). [[User:Lūkās|Lūkās]] ([[User talk:Lūkās|talk]]) 23:14, 3 March 2023 (CET)
-:Vicipaedia’s main source for ''Cechia'' is modern (1997), the older sources given there use ''Čechia'' (note that ''č'' in Czech orthography replaced earlier ''cz'', which Polish retained) or ''Czechia''. Vicipaedia itself also later gives ''Czechia'' as the oldest spelling. So, I don’t really see precedent for ''Cechia'' beyond modern innovation.
+::Thanks. You could make the entry, if you want. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 23:29, 3 March 2023 (CET)
-:While Hofmannus (1677) obviously couldn’t refer to the modern country, he supports the spelling ''Czechia'' under "''Boëmia'', vel ''Bohemia'', vel ''Bœhemia''": "Ejectis tandem è Boiohemo etiam Marcomannis Quadisque Sclavini Scythica & Barbara gens duce Czecho, intraverunt, Anno 550. quos ab occupato Boiohemo vulgus ''Bohemos'' vocat."
+:::Why ''dēns leōnis'' and not ''taraxacum (vulgāre)'' or ''aphaca''?
-:By the way, given the etymology (''Boio'' -> ''Bo''), are you sure it’s ''Bohēmia'' and not ''Bōhēmia'' or even ''Bōhemia''? Although, as Greek uses ''Βοημία'', ''Bohēmia'' does appear correct. [[User:Lūkās|Lūkās]] ([[User talk:Lūkās|talk]]) 15:03, 20 February 2023 (CET)
+:::> Varium adeptum est nomen Taraxacum. A foliorum incisuris dentatis vel pinnatis, maxillam dentatam leonis referre creditis, vel quia dentibus lacerata videntur, dens leonis, dent de lion Gallis, loewenzahn, a thalamo nudo punctato, rasum caput referente, caput monachi vocatum est. A singulari virtute, urinaria et pisse en lit, ab eadem, et a scapo cavo fistularia...
-::According to [[wikt:Bohemia#Latin|Wiktionary]] it is Bohēmia, although the alternative Boihaemum with long diphtongs does exist. It is still a problem for me, because Czechia is undoubtly the nation state of Czechs, whereas Bohemia denotes the feudal state. I think we can list both variants, but push Czechia further up. I also think we should add an option to the templates so that the IPA rendering is correct.  [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 15:15, 20 February 2023 (CET)
+:::https://books.google.it/books?id=NeZSAAAAcAAJ '''De taraxaco praesertim aquae eiusdem per fermentationem paratae eximio usu''' one of the first result of dens leonis in google books [[User:Logodaedalus|Logodaedalus]] ([[User talk:Logodaedalus|talk]]) 11:36, 4 March 2023 (CET)
-:::I concur, ''Czechia'' should be the main entry, ''Bohēmia'' should be given as a secondary option.
+::::It is the botanical name, which we could also include. But I have personally a problem with that, since botanical names are usually artificial and do not fit that well with Latin. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 14:34, 4 March 2023 (CET)
-:::Regarding ''Czechia'': I am aware that the pronunciations are auto-generated and cannot, at the moment, be changed or removed individually. Nonetheless, the given pronunciations for ''Czechia'' appear to be incorrect (and hardly pronounceable):
+:::::I agree that botanical names are oftentimes artificial. But overall I disagree because (1) taraxacum is just a part of the botanical name (2) I put in my previous reply a source which attests the use of taraxacum as the name of the plant and other names like dens leonis, caput monachi and urinaria (it. pisciacane). [[User:Logodaedalus|Logodaedalus]] ([[User talk:Logodaedalus|talk]]) 14:44, 4 March 2023 (CET)
-:::(Classical) IPA(key): /ˈkze.kʰi.a/, [ˈkd̪͡z̪ɛkʰiä]
+::::::[https://mateo.uni-mannheim.de/camenaref/kirsch/kirsch1/p1/jpg/s1400.html Kirsch] also has an entry for ''Tărāxăcum, i, n.'' and defines it as "<span lang="de" dir="ltr">Pfaffenblatt, Münchskopf, Saudistel, ein gewisses Kraut. ''Botan[isch].''</span>" (pastor's leaf, monk's head, sow thistle, a certain herb. ''Botanical.''). The first two names do appear to be common names for Taraxacum officinale and the second name does neatly fit ''caput monachi'', although the third name seems to refer to somewhat similar-looking [[wikipedia:Sonchus|Sonchus]].
-:::(Ecclesiastical) IPA(key): /ˈkd͡ze.ki.a/, [ˈkd̪͡z̪ɛːkiä]
+::::::So, I agree with ''taraxacum'', which (at least according to Wikipedia, I couldn't find it in Du Cange) entered Latin from Arabic in the 12th century and therefore is not a modern innovation.
-:::While any classical pronunciation is obviously hypothetical, <cz> was evidently meant to transcribe a Slavic sound that could not be represented accurately otherwise within the German traditional pronunciation of Latin. ''Czechia'' is not an isolated use of that spelling. Other examples I could find at Hofmannus include ''czar'' (tsar), ''Czernobela'' (Chernobyl) and ''Czenstochova'' (Polish Częstochowa, German Czenstochau/Tschenstochau). In the latter two, as well as ''Czechia'', it appears to represent /t͡ʃ/ or /t͡ʂ/, in ''czar'' it appears to correspond to /t͡s/.
+::::::Another question is the scope of our entry. In modern English usage ''dandelion'' only refers to the genus Taraxacum and similar plants, such as [[wikipedia:Leontodon|Leontodon]], are known as ''[[wikipedia:False_dandelion|false dandelion]]''. That strikes me as a modern botanical distinction, although I might be biased since my native language simply calls both ''<span lang="de" dir="ltr">Löwenzahn</span>''. [[User:Lūkās|Lūkās]] ([[User talk:Lūkās|talk]]) 01:12, 24 April 2023 (CEST)
-:::While common sense makes for a weak argument and I lack hard evidence for this (since ecclesiastical pronunciation isn't well-defined in this regard), I would expect ecclesiastical Latin to, in practice, use /t͡ʃ/ in this case. It is a phoneme that is already used in ecclesiastical Latin and it corresponds to the original intention.
+:::::::We can include this I think. Our dictionary is not (only) about the scientific usage of certain words, but you can make an extra comment to this. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 20:08, 2 May 2023 (CEST)
-:::As for classical pronunciation, I am at a loss. Since it is entirely hypothetical, I would suggest to either give none or to opt for a reasonable approximation and append it with an asterisk. [[User:Lūkās|Lūkās]] ([[User talk:Lūkās|talk]]) 16:18, 20 February 2023 (CET)
-::::I made an amendment to [[Czechia]]. You can take a look and tell me your opinion. Basically I told the program to interpret "Czechia" as "Csechia". [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 13:58, 21 February 2023 (CET)
-== Sea lion ==
+== Pudding ==
-{{Proposal}}<s>Ōtaria</s> Ōtarium
+{{Proposal}}puddinga
-{{Reason}}Derived from Ancient Greek. It is already in use in many Romance languages (French ''otarie'', Italian ''otaria'') [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 02:10, 23 February 2023 (CET)
+{{Reason}}I was think about words like puls dulcis, but pudding is a very universal word that has been adapted in every Romance language. Also Greek does use this word, so I am proposing this word. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 21:02, 3 March 2023 (CET)
-:I think, it actually has to be Ōtarium, since the word is neuter in Greek. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 13:09, 24 February 2023 (CET)
+:Looking in the lexicon Morganianum, I found a few words: ''oxygala'', ''erneum'' and ''murtatum''; ''oryzae tympanum/oryza sufflata'' for rice pudding. [[User:Logodaedalus|Logodaedalus]] ([[User talk:Logodaedalus|talk]]) 11:49, 4 March 2023 (CET)
+::Rice pudding is not the same as pudding, though. In German, we call this "Milchreis", since it has very little in common with pudding. But we can include this word for rice pudding, according to Vicipaedia Rice pudding is "Oryza cum lacte" or "puls oryzae" (but there is no source for that, so we should be cautious). [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 14:36, 4 March 2023 (CET)
-== Penguin ==
+== Conjunctor, Adjunctor, Implication, ... ==
-{{Proposal}}<s>Pinguinus</s> Pinguīnus
+{{Proposal}}The latin equivalents
-{{Reason}}According to ''Pons'', spheniscus means Penguin, but this is acutally not true, since sphenisci are a genus of penguins. There is a bird called ''Pinguinus impennis'' (who is actually not related to Penguins), but we can still use this vocabulary. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 02:14, 23 February 2023 (CET)
+{{Reason}}So, I am currently studying logic and mathematics and there are a bunch of words derived from Latin and Greek. I'd suggest that we should include the latinized versions conjūnctor, adjunctor, implicātiō, ... regardless whether they are attested or not (false friends obviously excluded). There are probably a few hundred words, so I think it'd be better if we do not discuss each one of them, because that would take a lot of time. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 19:16, 28 March 2023 (CEST)
-:It’s ''pinguīnus''.
+== Bingo ==
-:There’s also ''aptenodytes'' but it has the same problems of ''spheniscus''. [[User:Logodaedalus|Logodaedalus]] ([[User talk:Logodaedalus|talk]]) 13:30, 24 February 2023 (CET)
-::Thanks! It is sometimes difficult to figure out exactly how the word is pronounced (which is why macrons should always be set). [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 13:34, 24 February 2023 (CET)
-== Adrenaline ==
+{{Proposal}}Bingō
-{{Proposal}}Adrēnālīnum
+{{Reason}}As far as I am aware, bingo is derived from the sound of a bell (bing bing). Since this is a proper name of a game, I'd suggest to not change the name. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 20:14, 2 May 2023 (CEST)
-{{Reason}}The latin Wikipedia actually uses this word, but the evidence is quite weak. Therefore, I want to propose the word here. The Latin root ad + rēn is obvious. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 13:42, 24 February 2023 (CET)
-:According to the lexicon morganianum it’s adrēnalīnum. [[User:Logodaedalus|Logodaedalus]] ([[User talk:Logodaedalus|talk]]) 14:10, 24 February 2023 (CET)
-::Is it? That's weird, since the adjective is rēnālis with long a. But I don't know, if it gets shortened, when combined with -īnum. (Probably not, but I will look that up). [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 14:24, 24 February 2023 (CET)
-:::I have looked that up. According to § 16c) Kühner/Stegmann It is very rare for a vowel to be shortened within a stem when a suffix is added. This happens mostly when the accent shifts (e.g. molestus from mōlēs). So I think that's a mistake on Morgan's part, because there's no reason why the A in rēnālis should be shortened. [[User:Jācōbus|Jācōbus]] ([[User talk:Jācōbus|talk]]) 18:40, 24 February 2023 (CET)